今回はManufactured LandscapesというドキュメンタリーのディレクターJennifer Baichwalさんと、写真家Edward Burtynskyさんのインタビューを取り上げてみます。話している内容は僕らの生活には欠かせない「水」についてですが、お二人の考えを聞いているととても考えさせられてしまいます。映像の下に話している内容を（僕なりに）書き写してみたので読みながらインタビューを聞くと聞き取りやすいかもしれません。
[分:秒] 話し手: 話している内容
[00:00] Jian Ghomeshi: Hello you two. (It's) nice to have you both respectively together here in Studio Q to see you both again. You had such success with Manufactured Landscapes. Jenifer, when considering reuniting with Ed Burtynsky for the project like this, where was the watermark the one seemed the right way to go?
[00:23] Jenifer Baichwal: Well, it's interesting giving what you're talking about the begining of this question of interconnectedness, because Manufactured Landscapes really did try to take you to places we are responsible for, but we wouldn't normally ever see. And that was a real meditation or connectedness to those places. And in this case, when it's started working on the water essay, water photographic essay, we'd been talking about doing something together since that film becasue we had such a rich experience together. [00:51] There's something about the water, I mean just substance of water, the way it flows, it's massive capabilities. And also that connectedness, that sort, we could go all over the world and look at these massive redirections of water we do name whatever we name, and then also these massive intensely spiritual show our connections of water all arround the world that really was something so seductive about that idea and intimity because it's a fuge subject.
[01:28] Jian: It does feel like a paticurarlly grobal film, but in a very natural way. If you wanna discover one world, this is a film where you really see it. Ed, where did you feel like the right time to do this with Jenifer?
[01:42] Edword Burtynsky: Well, it just come off doing oil, that was a very bust subject as well, and approaching water was almost dunting that, you know, life is here because of it, and everybody everyone's life is connected to it. When I felt that, Jenifer, I love the way she aproaches another medium like photography, even though it's connected to film, but 24 frames per second, but the way she brings that medium into the medium of film, respects the medium of photography. Also the way she thinks about bringing more authentic feel to a film where she were not using PhDs to talk about the Colorad river. We are using somebody who experience what happened on the Colorad river and tell us that story. So really I didn't have that as my territory in terms of what I do as a stealth photographer, so having her as my kinda guide who teaches us how do we think through with those ideas to bring those area perspectives to the ground, so I thought it was a great marriage.
[02:45] Jian: What is the respect in the meaning of photography mean to you?
[02:49] Ed: Well that, in a way that she is looking at the way she presents the images on the screen. And the amount of the time she's putting on them on the screen the fact that feel they are still separated from the film and that they make sense within the context of the film as well.
[03:05] Jenifer: Well also when not to use them is a question, right? I mean, when not to have still is, we are sitting side by side on the helicopter on the Colorado river delta, looking down this bust desert. There used to be a thriving wet land, you know, we are filming in the cineplex in the exactly same sort of frame as taking photograph, in that case, it's how do you inteligently translate this or present it in mortion picture.
[03:36] Jian: Two steps back as you spend your great career as photographing the vraiety of inderstrial landscapes, mines, oilfields, factories, what did you really start taking the images of water? What form? Everything from the Okalala? Greenland, Icecorst, three *** dams, tell me about what would you do to this?
[03:55] Ed: I don't think we could have got to this if we hadn't done our oil project. And oil kind of have big three categories. Which is a source of oil soiled into the places where oil is discovered in Southern California. I moved from that to how we use that oil in that kind of the cities we built with oil, that kind of highways we built. And I went to the theme, the end of oil, where all the stuff is recollected in the landscapes. [04:19] So if I look at the water project, similar structure in the source of water. So we went to BC, we went into Iceland to look at the fresh water, went from that to water front as a big theme as to why do we want the water front, why do we want it to be in that space, that spiritual draw, the feel of water, all of those things are really important, you know, to tell that story of water as well. [4:45] And then, the industorial encourages the landscapes, the dams, aquadocks, things that of nature, we redirect it from its natural water couses to the places where we wanted, like in the desert to grow crops, or to start the city called Fenix, or Lasvegas, these are not natural places to have a city, but because of the Colorado river, we can do it. And then also the other big theme is the stress. Where have we got wrong? Owen's lake ped***, looking at the saltened see. We are doing things that are having diaconscuinces.
[05:17] Jian: I want to get some that. One of the things occured to me as thinking about you, the photographer, thinking about your fascination with some of the places in the photographs, there's moments in the film where you've got this microscope you are looking at the photographs that you're taking and discovering things in the photographs. It occurs to me that that's so fascinating when you take the photo, don't necessarily see everything, I mean you're instinctively, I suppose, knowing that's the image you want to take, but it's later when you look at the photo, sometimes you discover why you took that photo?
[05:55] Ed: Oh I discover things in the photo that I didn't know it was there when I shot it. Yes.
[06:00] Jian: Right. That's fascinating.
[06:00] Ed: That's bust landscape so there's no way we comprehend that landscape, especially when you are standing in front of it, such a large space that I've got a preferred vision so I can actually, you know, horn in on that until I frame. And then I'm framing through ha***, it's a very small frame.
[06:21] Jian: Cause, you're standing in front the scene, but you take a photograph so you can see it better later.
[06:25] Ed: Pretty much.
[06:26] Jian: Jenifer, this is your third documentary focusing having relationship with nature, including Active God. As a documentary film maker, do you feel like you have more responsivility to focus on environmental issues now?
[06:40] Jenifer: I think everybody has more resopnsivility to focus on environmental issues, but I think for the way that we are, can I think about the reasons Ed and I drown to each other on the first place is that we do experiential non didactic film, so the film is meant be mersive, it's much of the celebration of water as it is element, you know, we go to the Duck(?), Tenaries(?) and Duck(?) and Bangladesh where (we) talk about grobal connectedness. I mean Efran(?) to those Tenaries(?) directly into the Birdgang(?) river. There's no regulation and all those shoes, all that leather is for export. [07:17] So that's a connection. It's important for us to know about the places like these. But at the same time, I feel like to hit people over the head with the argument is a way of alienating. And I think that creating a place to think about something in a different way, which is what the photographs do very much in the wide view to the little detail he finds himself after he has taken them. Film does that in the same way, so I'm trying to address the issues of our time.
[07:50] Jian: But I feel like this is a more direct approach in some ways, or less meditative approach, pointing out we have the environment.
[07:58] Jenifer: But it's opposite, too. Because it's also the way water shapes us. I mean it's not just one sided relationship. It's also our longing to be around the water. And the fact that we need it to live, to be alive, but also just the way, like looking into a camp fire, there's something hypnotic about it, drown to water. So it was, I guess, it was the idea to try to create the situation where you might not, after seeing the film, turn on the tap with the same sort of nonchalance you did before, but it was through the massive experience took you all over the world to these places.
[08:35] Jian: Jenifer talks about the celebration and the degradation and the romance as well. In this film we see many examples of envirionmental devastation and degradation of water supply, in a nutshell, if you can do this, I know it's hard to speak it to somebody, but what is your primary concern when it comes to our relationship with water today?
[08:54] Ed: I think my main concern is that when we redirect the water, move it from one water shift, one stream or one river to somewhere else, there's always a winner, the one who gets the water, and there's the loser on the down stream, people or animals or fish or anything living on the down stream. There's always this consequence with the water. I don't think we fully comprehend how much we are effecting the world where is changing. For instance, I read the stuff recently, 50 years ago in China, there's 50,000 rivers, and today there's 25,000 rivers. So 25,000 rivers have now disappeared. That's whole ecosystem. That's people rely on the downstream. Now that's redirected somewhere else. [09:35] So when we start looking at that scale of transforming of landscape, water, we think of it as norble resource, but we can't get it inland unless it comes off the oceans or comes from operation. And once we change the climate or once the climate starts changing, that water doesn't alive there any more, and there's no way we're gonna get it there. Once we drain the aquifer, we're done. We have to leave that place. So to me, I feel it's probably the most destabilizing of any elements we're working with. We can run out of oil in a way, still make gro**b it soda, but we cannot run out of water to make a grobe it.
[10:08] Jian: Does it effect you emotionally to photograph some of these enviromnental disaster? How you deal with that?
[10:14] Ed: I think, yes... Thirty years of me looking at how expanding into the landscape, and it's hard not feel to grief. That's somehow, this is all gonna end up something that isn't going to be very pretty to the next generations, maybe even later on my own life that we might start seeing these trouble consequences to this expansions that are currently undergoing. So, yeah, there is kind of sense of grief how do you get that world out there we need to start paying attention to the place called nature. In fact we even call nature something outside of ourselves. I think it's scary proposition as well. We are part of it, I believe, we are not understanding the fact having on it in a way we should. I'm hoping that through the photography and through the film, we can help to raise that consciousness. Army people are trying to raise the consciousness.
[11:04] Jian: How do you personally cope with the scale of what you see, in terms of what we are doing to the einvironment, more to say, it comes to the water degradation.
[11:14] Ed: I do a lot of stuff personally in terms of trying to move towards more sustainable existance. I started a project. I started, went up the Beeper River. We are renaturalizing the river, trying to understand that we really have to start somewhere. You know, and I've kind of gone beyond just trying to film that I'm not actually getting imbolved in remediation things and trying to find what can I do and what can we do to begin to correct the wrong side of the path.
[11:46] Jian: That makes you feel...
[11:47] Ed: It's a release, yes.
[11:48] Jian: And, Jen(ifer), there's been a spiritual component in some of your past documentary film, including Active God, as much as we see the distruction of the water and land and charge in terms of how we feel the environment. Do you see it as a reflection of our spiritual problem in our culture?
[12:07] Jenifer: I think I see it as a spritual relationship in someway. Look at how much water is part of spiritual ceremony. The Kumbmaira(?) which is in the film, literally thirty million people are going to the same place on the same day to take secret bar(?), and again, that is to me, that is spiritually overwhelming situation and something unbelievablly powerful about that. But I do think it is a reverence, the same of Active God, too. Reverence for the nature. You could be reverent when you are frightened of it. But reverence for that is, I think, partly spiritual response. If we get to that place, we remind ourselves that our relationship with the nature is a spiritual component. I think we think twice about screwing it up the way we do.
[13:02] Jian: Sounds like a very simple question, but can something be done? I mean it's a very powerful documentary and there's a lot of questions I wanted to ask. But let me put the last one to both of you with the time we have left. This film is about how we change water, but also how water changes us as time goes on. In everything you photograph, do you see environmental change as inevitable, or do you believe that we are still capable of returning to more symbiotic relationship with the nature?
[13:35] Ed: I think we are capable of it. I think, but it's gonna take a watt, and it gets even more dunting when we start looking at India and China where you have these extremely large populations and dependences. You know, it's so dire in terms of aquifers and things in the nature. I believe we we can, but it's gonna take, like a we should have a turn alarm fire going on right now we've got to get out there and start acting now. I don't we have a lot of time. I think that time is really a enemy. [14:11] You know, science and technology got us a lot of trouble. And we are hoping science and technology will help to pull this out. I think we can, but the political system is slighting that, and it seems to elects and those in goverment. We are having hard time trying to act the right thing. Even look at the crupse of Kyoto, just trying to find some price for curbon, but it's been impossible. And then, you know, but that again, goverments understand that water is not negosiable. They need to provide that they are gonna have very difficult situation in their hands. So I think, I talked to a lot of people, and the passion that I find that people have towards the water is amazing. So I think one of those things we deeply understand that we can mess with this one.
[14:57] Jian: Jenifer, you have last word?
[14:58] Jenifer: I would say the small gestures we make, we support the experimental lakes area which is a gragedy, that is not completely funded and open right now as we speak that people have stopped being stopped doing the experiment that'd be going for years. (Jian: that funding is underattacked?) that funding is stopped by the federal goverment and now the other budies are coming but it's not a done deal by any means. We are both lay conterial water keeper stewards. It's those kind of things once you get imbolved, you realize how many people are imbolved in fighting the good fight. And I think it requires the shifting consciousness to get to that place, and then once you are in that place you can't go back.
[15:46] Jian: It's good to have you both here. (Ed: Great to be here.) Congraturations on this. (Jenifer: Thank you.)
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